Comments on: Patronization http://swordmaiden.com A Resource for Women Fighters in the SCA Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:52:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Piper http://swordmaiden.com/combat/patronization/#comment-3145 Piper Sun, 09 Mar 2008 16:06:38 +0000 http://swordmaiden.com/combat/patronization/#comment-3145 Hello, I'm really enjoying cruising through your site, and the 'how to deal with patronization' bit was fantastic, I'm going to use it! I've been in two and a half years, I spent two years trying to find someone, ANYONE who would teach me heavy and armoring, not because I'm a girl, but because im disabled. Iy have a muscular skeletal pain disorder, and was told i had 12 months to live just before i went desperately looking for medieval stuff and found the sca. No one would take me on, garb making, Yes! sewing, Yes! fighting, No! what if we hurt you? they said. It took a while to realise that they thought they knew more about my disease than i did, I have been dealing with it for years, researching and trying different sports etc in conjunction with my states largest hospitals pain-clinic. I wasn't anyones squire, and i didn't have a Peer as a master, I wasn't in a household; many reasonable sounding excuses were brought up; the result- no trainer in heavy for me! The fighters who weren't knights or peers only wanted to train healthy young (usually male bar one exception) people with prior martial arts experience, who were of boastable potential, not the sick young women with the short life expectancy (which got put out about the grape vine despite my asking it not be). So I got in to the rest of it all, despite some resistance, and happily I've been doing combat archery since i joined because the guy who teaches that takes in everyone! its up to you to try it and see if it works for you. We soon became best friends, and six months ago he asked me if i wanted to come down to the group he started in Bunbury, and take up the opportunity on offer to do some heavy with his new heavy recruits, well! I haven't looked back! He is a natural teacher, a showman, a clown and has started two out of the four groups in western australia; a political hot potato who does things like starting groups from scratch when people say he cant, he steps on toes left right and center, except when fighting, and will never earn knighthood as his weapons of choice (which he DOES excel in) are first combat archery ( this states best) A pike man with pole arms (ditto best) and then and only then a swordsman fighting heavy! He teaches weekly classes in fighting (heavy, rapier and combat archery), also classes after work for armoring, monthly day-long other Arts and sciences and also monthly war training. He did teach garb making, dancing and music until I came down to the area and took it on so he could fight more. Six months of solid training I've had no, armor is taking longer as i need more than the minimum to cover the points of my disease where its close to the surface, I've just about finished a full suit of stainless, the other (now no longer new) recruits have done the same, and I'm to try for authorization next month, at the first inter sca group event in west Australia, which we came up with the idea for with some friends and are running together; and you know what else? Doing all the other stuff in the SCA gave me purpose, I now teach my main research topic, Tudor dress making- a full tudor was the first dress i made as no one would come close enough to me to tell me it was too hard and i couldn't!The people in the main biggest group finally realised i wouldn't go away, and I've now made friends there. Wanting fighting so desperately and fighting for the right to at least be allowed to try it wasn't fun, i nearly gave up a few times, but now i've got it! and rapier too! I love my training bruises! They remind me i'm still alive, -despite my 'die-by' date, which i might add expired a year and a half ago! Heavy fighting has built me muscle!!!, when I'm flat on a bed 20 hours in 24, and use all my drugged-up-to-walk time on quality of life, it really matters! Yes I was too sore to play some days, yes it hurts me more, but with a good trainer who lets you find your own limits, supports you every step when needed, and steps back when not, and fellow trainees who understand when i have to say, 'fast and light only today guys, I'm too sore to manage heavy', It's been a wonderful road to walk! For all the women, girls and people with limitations out there; It doesn't matter what disability,- my words for you are this: persevere, be polite to everyone, enjoy. It doesn't matter how many people stone wall you or patronize you for what ever reason; perseverance will win you through - to getting that training ( and the wonderful, painful, but certainly boastable, Technicolor bruises that come with it!) you so desperately desire! On a final note, that wonderful trainer I've told you about? the sort everyone should find and not let get away? Well I've covered that last angle at least, admittedly somewhat unwittingly! We started dating not long ago! -For someone left in a bed waiting to die, I realize that I've come a LONG way, through the SCA (in all its glorious aspects!- tounge in cheek.) I hope everyone who reads this gets as much enjoyment out of SCA as I do. In Service to the dream... Piper-Alicia Hello, I’m really enjoying cruising through your site, and the ‘how to deal with patronization’ bit was fantastic, I’m going to use it!

I’ve been in two and a half years, I spent two years trying to find someone, ANYONE who would teach me heavy and armoring, not because I’m a girl, but because im disabled. Iy have a muscular skeletal pain disorder, and was told i had 12 months to live just before i went desperately looking for medieval stuff and found the sca. No one would take me on, garb making, Yes! sewing, Yes! fighting, No! what if we hurt you? they said. It took a while to realise that they thought they knew more about my disease than i did, I have been dealing with it for years, researching and trying different sports etc in conjunction with my states largest hospitals pain-clinic. I wasn’t anyones squire, and i didn’t have a Peer as a master, I wasn’t in a household; many reasonable sounding excuses were brought up; the result- no trainer in heavy for me! The fighters who weren’t knights or peers only wanted to train healthy young (usually male bar one exception) people with prior martial arts experience, who were of boastable potential, not the sick young women with the short life expectancy (which got put out about the grape vine despite my asking it not be). So I got in to the rest of it all, despite some resistance, and happily I’ve been doing combat archery since i joined because the guy who teaches that takes in everyone! its up to you to try it and see if it works for you. We soon became best friends, and six months ago he asked me if i wanted to come down to the group he started in Bunbury, and take up the opportunity on offer to do some heavy with his new heavy recruits, well! I haven’t looked back! He is a natural teacher, a showman, a clown and has started two out of the four groups in western australia; a political hot potato who does things like starting groups from scratch when people say he cant, he steps on toes left right and center, except when fighting, and will never earn knighthood as his weapons of choice (which he DOES excel in) are first combat archery ( this states best) A pike man with pole arms (ditto best) and then and only then a swordsman fighting heavy! He teaches weekly classes in fighting (heavy, rapier and combat archery), also classes after work for armoring, monthly day-long other Arts and sciences and also monthly war training. He did teach garb making, dancing and music until I came down to the area and took it on so he could fight more. Six months of solid training I’ve had no, armor is taking longer as i need more than the minimum to cover the points of my disease where its close to the surface, I’ve just about finished a full suit of stainless, the other (now no longer new) recruits have done the same, and I’m to try for authorization next month, at the first inter sca group event in west Australia, which we came up with the idea for with some friends and are running together; and you know what else? Doing all the other stuff in the SCA gave me purpose, I now teach my main research topic, Tudor dress making- a full tudor was the first dress i made as no one would come close enough to me to tell me it was too hard and i couldn’t!The people in the main biggest group finally realised i wouldn’t go away, and I’ve now made friends there.

Wanting fighting so desperately and fighting for the right to at least be allowed to try it wasn’t fun, i nearly gave up a few times, but now i’ve got it! and rapier too! I love my training bruises! They remind me i’m still alive, -despite my ‘die-by’ date, which i might add expired a year and a half ago! Heavy fighting has built me muscle!!!, when I’m flat on a bed 20 hours in 24, and use all my drugged-up-to-walk time on quality of life, it really matters! Yes I was too sore to play some days, yes it hurts me more, but with a good trainer who lets you find your own limits, supports you every step when needed, and steps back when not, and fellow trainees who understand when i have to say, ‘fast and light only today guys, I’m too sore to manage heavy’, It’s been a wonderful road to walk!

For all the women, girls and people with limitations out there; It doesn’t matter what disability,- my words for you are this: persevere, be polite to everyone, enjoy. It doesn’t matter how many people stone wall you or patronize you for what ever reason; perseverance will win you through - to getting that training ( and the wonderful, painful, but certainly boastable, Technicolor bruises that come with it!) you so desperately desire!

On a final note, that wonderful trainer I’ve told you about? the sort everyone should find and not let get away? Well I’ve covered that last angle at least, admittedly somewhat unwittingly! We started dating not long ago! -For someone left in a bed waiting to die, I realize that I’ve come a LONG way, through the SCA (in all its glorious aspects!- tounge in cheek.) I hope everyone who reads this gets as much enjoyment out of SCA as I do.

In Service to the dream…

Piper-Alicia

]]> By: nameless http://swordmaiden.com/combat/patronization/#comment-2499 nameless Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:23:20 +0000 http://swordmaiden.com/combat/patronization/#comment-2499 Hello, I am so happy to have read this article! The first and last time I ever have gone to a rapier practice was the most patronizing I have ever received from a man. After 30 minutes of telling me what I can and can't do (these were not instructions, just his own presumptions about me) he asked if I wanted to suit up, how could I resist? After 10 minutes of him hitting me to let me know the difference between a good hit, a bad hit, a hit that is too strong, a hit in the boob ("did that hurt? That's why women are to wear chest gaurds...") he proceeded to put on his garb, gave me a rapier and we began. I was honestly very upset that he performed his hard hit next to my arm's artery! A hit like that can develop a blood clot and kill a person. Thanks for doing that, a complete stranger. (I stocked up on the vitamine E for the next week and had a large ugly black and blue and green for a month there). I hit him often and blocked and evaded. He asked me if I do any form of martial art, I said yes. He presumed Japanese. Then he complained that my thrusting was too soft. So, with his permission I made sure he felt all thrusts from that point forward. He countered that "instead of thrusting I should draw". So he showed me what a draw is. No problem. I drew between his armpits and torso, and between his legs. I am sure he understood by then that I knew what I was doing. He asked what my martial art is. I said what it was and he insulted me. I will never pick up a rapier with any SCA ever again. Not only did he not have a clue about any martial ettiquete, he had no clue about any kind of ettiquete. I met him a week later and he still was insulting and rude, explaining to me that my martial art could never really be used in the SCA and that "the way (I) train my martial art is not real fighting" anyway. Why you ladies want to "fight" with these thespian fighter wanna bes who don't know anything about real swordsmanship is beyond me. Maybe I just happened to meet the wrong guy. Enjoy yourselves. Thank you for the web site in support of women. Hello,

I am so happy to have read this article! The first and last time I ever have gone to a rapier practice was the most patronizing I have ever received from a man. After 30 minutes of telling me what I can and can’t do (these were not instructions, just his own presumptions about me) he asked if I wanted to suit up, how could I resist?

After 10 minutes of him hitting me to let me know the difference between a good hit, a bad hit, a hit that is too strong, a hit in the boob (”did that hurt? That’s why women are to wear chest gaurds…”) he proceeded to put on his garb, gave me a rapier and we began. I was honestly very upset that he performed his hard hit next to my arm’s artery! A hit like that can develop a blood clot and kill a person. Thanks for doing that, a complete stranger. (I stocked up on the vitamine E for the next week and had a large ugly black and blue and green for a month there).

I hit him often and blocked and evaded. He asked me if I do any form of martial art, I said yes. He presumed Japanese. Then he complained that my thrusting was too soft. So, with his permission I made sure he felt all thrusts from that point forward. He countered that “instead of thrusting I should draw”. So he showed me what a draw is. No problem. I drew between his armpits and torso, and between his legs. I am sure he understood by then that I knew what I was doing.

He asked what my martial art is. I said what it was and he insulted me.

I will never pick up a rapier with any SCA ever again. Not only did he not have a clue about any martial ettiquete, he had no clue about any kind of ettiquete.

I met him a week later and he still was insulting and rude, explaining to me that my martial art could never really be used in the SCA and that “the way (I) train my martial art is not real fighting” anyway.

Why you ladies want to “fight” with these thespian fighter wanna bes who don’t know anything about real swordsmanship is beyond me. Maybe I just happened to meet the wrong guy.

Enjoy yourselves. Thank you for the web site in support of women.

]]> By: Oliver Fitz Osbern http://swordmaiden.com/combat/patronization/#comment-744 Oliver Fitz Osbern Sat, 03 Nov 2007 12:50:27 +0000 http://swordmaiden.com/combat/patronization/#comment-744 Another great article. There's a lot of 'in the middle' patronisation about, but I can swallow that (it's best to give the benefit of the doubt) but I've had some hideous 'snotting' happen to me from WMA guys who see themselves as the next Fiore. As a humble guy, into heavy fighting, it seems to invite being pissed over by the WMA 'young guns'. I can fully respect what it must be like to get patronised by the guys, with the chivalric aspect strongly at work, 'is the lady for fighting or for romancing' sort of confusions. On the other hand, I've known a few ladies who have reacted too badly to male patronisation and gone on in an 'in your face' way, rather than a self assured way, breeding verbal confrontation at every possible time whenever they face a 200lb heavy. It works both ways I think, for me, if a lady wears armour or not or even if she bests me in a fight, she is to be cherished and respected...as for not getting something, learning one thing a day is brilliant, and experienced fighters tend to push twenty things on a student in one hour and wonder why they don't replicate it all in the next bout. I've noticed that 'techniques' are great when shown on someone acting as a dummy, but have you tried to do these techniques when someone who knows the move already knows the counter or is trying to writhe out of the position...the more complex the move the less likely it is to work. I've seen some very knowledgeable fighters fail to put in a single complex move in a bout...infact, the simpler one's always seem to work best...so I'm not impressed by all this complexity that experts try to show me as a beginner....blessings Another great article. There’s a lot of ‘in the middle’ patronisation about, but I can swallow that (it’s best to give the benefit of the doubt) but I’ve had some hideous ’snotting’ happen to me from WMA guys who see themselves as the next Fiore. As a humble guy, into heavy fighting, it seems to invite being pissed over by the WMA ‘young guns’. I can fully respect what it must be like to get patronised by the guys, with the chivalric aspect strongly at work, ‘is the lady for fighting or for romancing’ sort of confusions. On the other hand, I’ve known a few ladies who have reacted too badly to male patronisation and gone on in an ‘in your face’ way, rather than a self assured way, breeding verbal confrontation at every possible time whenever they face a 200lb heavy. It works both ways I think, for me, if a lady wears armour or not or even if she bests me in a fight, she is to be cherished and respected…as for not getting something, learning one thing a day is brilliant, and experienced fighters tend to push twenty things on a student in one hour and wonder why they don’t replicate it all in the next bout. I’ve noticed that ‘techniques’ are great when shown on someone acting as a dummy, but have you tried to do these techniques when someone who knows the move already knows the counter or is trying to writhe out of the position…the more complex the move the less likely it is to work. I’ve seen some very knowledgeable fighters fail to put in a single complex move in a bout…infact, the simpler one’s always seem to work best…so I’m not impressed by all this complexity that experts try to show me as a beginner….blessings

]]> By: Ariel de Courtenay http://swordmaiden.com/combat/patronization/#comment-223 Ariel de Courtenay Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:20:15 +0000 http://swordmaiden.com/combat/patronization/#comment-223 Another article on this site references the idea that because of stereotypes, some male fighters find it less than worthwhile to train women fighters. In my experience, almost without exception, I have found the opposite to be true--EVERYONE loves training women fighters--we are pretty off the field, hot in our armor, and socialized to be warm and polite about taking feedback. Having fighting in common means that tons of guys who had nothing to talk with me about before now have a connection near and dear to their hearts and want to go on at length. All this means that guys, in their enthusiasm, often come across as patronizing when that was the last thing from their minds (as you have pointed out). This perception is partly due to the fact that fighting pushes me way outside my comfort zone and I am particularly vulnerable to frustration and overload--this may mean that I perceive advice as patronizing even when it truly is not. When I have tried to make clear limits, I sometimes appear either rudely dismissive or snappish. I keep two responses in my communication tool box to deal with this very common situation: 1. "OK, thanks for showing me that. I learn best by doing. Will you stand there while I practice that move on you a whole bunch of times?" This tells the truly helpful person exactly what I need them to do (so they know how to best help me) and has the lovely side benefit of getting them to shut up for a little while so I can concentrate and learn. (After several repetitions, I am often ready for more information.) 2. (For pushy people who are not getting my cues about boundaries) "I can only learn one or two new things at a time. I'm sorry, but I won't retain anything you are telling me now." (This is not a gambit--it is completely true, just a little more direct than usual). My lord Sir Martin wondered if number two might verge on rude, but I feel that if I am going to decline advice, the person will feel less blown off if I honestly explain why--most people have had the "my brain is full" experience and are immediately respectful of my request. Another article on this site references the idea that because of stereotypes, some male fighters find it less than worthwhile to train women fighters. In my experience, almost without exception, I have found the opposite to be true–EVERYONE loves training women fighters–we are pretty off the field, hot in our armor, and socialized to be warm and polite about taking feedback. Having fighting in common means that tons of guys who had nothing to talk with me about before now have a connection near and dear to their hearts and want to go on at length.

All this means that guys, in their enthusiasm, often come across as patronizing when that was the last thing from their minds (as you have pointed out). This perception is partly due to the fact that fighting pushes me way outside my comfort zone and I am particularly vulnerable to frustration and overload–this may mean that I perceive advice as patronizing even when it truly is not. When I have tried to make clear limits, I sometimes appear either rudely dismissive or snappish.

I keep two responses in my communication tool box to deal with this very common situation:

1. “OK, thanks for showing me that. I learn best by doing. Will you stand there while I practice that move on you a whole bunch of times?” This tells the truly helpful person exactly what I need them to do (so they know how to best help me) and has the lovely side benefit of getting them to shut up for a little while so I can concentrate and learn. (After several repetitions, I am often ready for more information.)

2. (For pushy people who are not getting my cues about boundaries) “I can only learn one or two new things at a time. I’m sorry, but I won’t retain anything you are telling me now.” (This is not a gambit–it is completely true, just a little more direct than usual).

My lord Sir Martin wondered if number two might verge on rude, but I feel that if I am going to decline advice, the person will feel less blown off if I honestly explain why–most people have had the “my brain is full” experience and are immediately respectful of my request.

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